Spiritual Tramp - Latest Comments

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

Rob Daywalker — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:03:24 -0000

It seems to me that 1) if Jesus would have come for a single human being; and if 2) there is no clear condemnation of healthy same-sex relationships or plural marriage in Scripture, than the Christian mystics (Julian, Bernard of Clairvaux, and so on) experience Christ as their spouse are using Scripture responsibly in calling themselves the Bride of Christ. It seems to me that the image of a single marriage encompassing multiple people seems to me a faithful image. I made the same comment the other day to friends: "Jesus is the most polyamorous man I've ever known."

Give that was a tangent, I absolutely agree with you that honouring fellow Christians as the Bride of Christ, or as friends, or as a strange sort of brothers and sisters (Mark 3:31-35) who are co-heirs with Christ through adoption.
Thanks for your post!

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

salguod — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:24:02 -0000

Oh yeah, it is an attention getter. :-P

I think what got me focused on telling folks what to do was this:

"Personally, as I told this person, I don’t care who you live with, sleep with, or marry so long as you’re all healthy and happy. It’s not my place to tell you how to run your life, particularly if you’re not a Christian. Even if you are, I’m not sure that I could come up with anything other than a cultural argument against it, and, personally, I couldn’t come up with one of those that would hold water."

I read too much into the 'Even if you are' bit, it seems. I'm with you 100% that we have no business telling non-Christians how to run their lives. I'd say that we ought not to be dictating to Christians either, but there is an assumption there that we're both following Jesus and when I see something in my brother that doesn't appear to match that, I think there's an obligation to have a dialog about it. A respectful, humble dialog where all parties are open to changing their perspective.

In regards to non-believers, I think we shouldn't be shy about our convictions, but as you've said, we really have no standing at all to judge their behavior. I don't think I'd go as far as "I don’t care ... so long as you’re all healthy and happy." because I would say that living outside the context of God's law isn't going to be healthy or happy, ultimately.

Still, I'd say we should share our convictions, in an appropriate context, with appropriate respect and humility. After all, that's one way that people are moved to faith, seeing us act on our beliefs.

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

spiritualtramp — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:42:12 -0000

The title is tangential, but it sure is an attention getter. ;-)

I think my conclusions on how we should treat each other are spot on. I choose not to condemn the actions of non-Christians where there is no clear harm being done. Polygamy happens to be one of those things. I respect my gov't but I think some of our laws are monumentally stupid and I don't think that submitting to our government is a directive to do whatever they say. Else we'd still be a colony.

The post really wasn't about polygamy per se though as you guessed. If you're talking about "there’s no telling other families how to live their lives.", I think there's a difference between discussing matters where we differ on morality with none believers and actually just saying "this is how you need to live" without realizing that no matter how much we say "this is how you need to live" without Jesus no matter how moral you are you aren't moral enough. So all the shouting people do at none-believers about how they need to change their lives is not only counter-productive it's also pointless.

I don't think things like stealing and murder are on the table since there seems to, for most people, be a common ground there. So if it seems like I was saying "do whatever works for you", I wasn't.

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

salguod — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:15:54 -0000

Hmmm.

I'm thinking your title is tangential to your main point of how we ought to treat each other, but that point is tangential to my comment.

The Bible describes the church, not individual members, as the bride of Christ. I think that's a distinction worth making in that it negates the weird image of bisexual poligamy that you've conjured up. In other words, I think that's pretty far out of context and the conclusions that might lead to is way out of context.

Poligamy is never condemned in the NT that I'm aware of except for elders. I think there are plenty of OT examples of multiple wives causing trouble for the man to provide a pretty good argument against it. That and the fact that, at least in the US, it is illegal and the direction to submit to the government pretty much put that idea to rest for believers here. I know there are believers overseas that have multiple spouses.

In terms of telling each other what to do, I hear what you're saying about not having the right to tell them what to do, but I think you take it a bit too far. As believers, we are to examine the scriptures and seek to follow his will. As we learn and develop our own convictions, I think we have an obligation to discuss them with others, in a reasonable, loving matter. In some things (sex outside of marriage, stealing, murder, for example) the scriptures are pretty darn clear and there really isn't any debate. in those cases, we can challenge pretty dogmatically. In other cases, I think we open a dialog, share our convictions and challenge them to think, gently, about our convictions. You may still disagree, but to take a hands 'whatever works for you' attitude isn't the most loving thing, in my mind.

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

spiritualtramp — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:29:41 -0000

And it may or may not be illegal where they are.

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

spiritualtramp — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:28:44 -0000

Well this person is only legally married to one other person, so perhaps polyamorous is the more correct term.

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

Bill — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:20:49 -0000

Sorry, fixated on just the first paragraph here - isn't polygamy against the law?

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

Christopher Walker — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:42:37 -0000

Ah alright. Thanks for clarifying! :)

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

spiritualtramp — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:33:33 -0000

I'm saying that just as in marriage, if you chose to tell someone the "right way to do things" you need to a) make sure you're right b) tell them in a loving manner c) accept them even if they don't agree with you.

We're certainly not literally married to them, just as we aren't literally married to Christ. But I think it's a decent analogy.

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

Christopher Walker — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:27:20 -0000

Hmmm I'm not sure how I feel about this. Are you saying loving people means that we should never tell the people we love the right way to do things? Or are you saying it's only right to do so in certain circumstances?
Also, I really appreciate how you put this, because it's true of Christians in general: " Things I need to do: Encourage her. Love her. Learn the art of compromise. LISTEN TO HER." Especially with how you've applied it to fellow human beings. It's basically the second of the two most important commandments. But you're not married to your fellow Christians as individuals, are you? The church is married to Jesus. I'm not sure the bridegroom metaphor was meant to be taken so literally.

Re: Jesus – Bisexual Polygamist?

Mad Scientist Anthol — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:50:16 -0000

Well said, Sir.

Re: My eschatology

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Re: OLPC – Give One Get One

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Re: X Marks the Christ

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Re: My eschatology

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Re: My eschatology

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Re: Social Justice

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Re: Private: Unlovable?

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Re: Walking Like a Dick

spiritualtramp — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:11:58 -0000

I'm not Scott; I'm his wife. I can't be as eloquent as you. However, I defend my archaic sisters and brothers (those following Christ's mandate and not their own mislead, self-serving purposes). "Christianity" and "Christian" are extremely broad terms as the world and many christians think of them. I would dare say that an accurate definition of both would be a bastardization, a mating of biblical concepts (I call them truths) with self-serving ideas that idolize God (a token who must be appeased in order for wishes, success, hopes, etc. to be granted) and thus promoting all kinds of hateful ideologies and horrific crimes against others.

Don't get me wrong, I serve an awesome (meaning an unfathomable greatness that I can't fully know, but acknowledge with "fear" (like something terrifyingly wonderful) and full confidence that I am still safe) God. No idol is he. I cannot earn, buy, or beg his favor. No deeds I do or don't do will make me a better or worse "sogstfij" (*smile* a new word that I can't say meaning servant of God saved through faith in Jesus). I certainly believe there is sin and sanctification. I am confident of a future where there is perfection but know full well that in this life I am not perfect and neither is anybody else.

Despite the actions of many, the Jesus in the New Testament would not launch the crusades, burn witches, blow up abortion clinics, verbally or physically assault homosexuals, force people into relationships, abuse children, slander others, finagle poor widows out of their last pennies, throw beggars in jail, let the poor starve ... Some Christians have forgotten the message of Christ. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Instead their fear of their own sin or the sin of others has caused them to build fences and sharpen spears to keep out and attack the very people they are to love.

I may disagree with your philosophy, but you no more deserve to be yelled at, stoned, mocked, ridiculed, cursed, or rejected than any other person. You are my neighbor - I don't have to agree with you but I do have to love you. That is what so many "Christians" have forgotten.

Leigh Roche

Re: Walking Like a Dick

Lulubiz — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 03:17:40 -0000

Oh generalisations... Those things cause a lot of pain. My mother always tell me that I can't be a good person because I don't believe in god and that I will go to hell. Even if, and I will admit that it might be possible because I don't own the truth, god exists I am not scared of the last judgement. Why should I ? Being an atheist doesn't make me a bad person as well as being a christian doesn't make someone a good person. To each his or her own belief.